<SPAN name="c3"></SPAN>
<p>“While I was talking thus, the Counsellor, who was present,
had prepared an answer, and had resolved to resume all I had said, according
to the formality of a debate, in which things are generally repeated
more faithfully than they are answered, as if the chief trial to be
made were of men’s memories. ‘You have talked prettily,
for a stranger,’ said he, ‘having heard of many things among
us which you have not been able to consider well; but I will make the
whole matter plain to you, and will first repeat in order all that you
have said; then I will show how much your ignorance of our affairs has
misled you; and will, in the last place, answer all your arguments.
And, that I may begin where I promised, there were four things—’
‘Hold your peace!’ said the Cardinal; ‘this will take
up too much time; therefore we will, at present, ease you of the trouble
of answering, and reserve it to our next meeting, which shall be to-morrow,
if Raphael’s affairs and yours can admit of it. But, Raphael,’
said he to me, ‘I would gladly know upon what reason it is that
you think theft ought not to be punished by death: would you give way
to it? or do you propose any other punishment that will be more useful
to the public? for, since death does not restrain theft, if men thought
their lives would be safe, what fear or force could restrain ill men?
On the contrary, they would look on the mitigation of the punishment
as an invitation to commit more crimes.’ I answered, ‘It
seems to me a very unjust thing to take away a man’s life for
a little money, for nothing in the world can be of equal value with
a man’s life: and if it be said, “that it is not for the
money that one suffers, but for his breaking the law,” I must
say, extreme justice is an extreme injury: for we ought not to approve
of those terrible laws that make the smallest offences capital, nor
of that opinion of the Stoics that makes all crimes equal; as if there
were no difference to be made between the killing a man and the taking
his purse, between which, if we examine things impartially, there is
no likeness nor proportion. God has commanded us not to kill,
and shall we kill so easily for a little money? But if one shall
say, that by that law we are only forbid to kill any except when the
laws of the land allow of it, upon the same grounds, laws may be made,
in some cases, to allow of adultery and perjury: for God having taken
from us the right of disposing either of our own or of other people’s
lives, if it is pretended that the mutual consent of men in making laws
can authorise man-slaughter in cases in which God has given us no example,
that it frees people from the obligation of the divine law, and so makes
murder a lawful action, what is this, but to give a preference to human
laws before the divine? and, if this is once admitted, by the same rule
men may, in all other things, put what restrictions they please upon
the laws of God. If, by the Mosaical law, though it was rough
and severe, as being a yoke laid on an obstinate and servile nation,
men were only fined, and not put to death for theft, we cannot imagine,
that in this new law of mercy, in which God treats us with the tenderness
of a father, He has given us a greater licence to cruelty than He did
to the Jews. Upon these reasons it is, that I think putting thieves
to death is not lawful; and it is plain and obvious that it is absurd
and of ill consequence to the commonwealth that a thief and a murderer
should be equally punished; for if a robber sees that his danger is
the same if he is convicted of theft as if he were guilty of murder,
this will naturally incite him to kill the person whom otherwise he
would only have robbed; since, if the punishment is the same, there
is more security, and less danger of discovery, when he that can best
make it is put out of the way; so that terrifying thieves too much provokes
them to cruelty.</p>
<p>“But as to the question, ‘What more convenient way of
punishment can be found?’ I think it much easier to find out that
than to invent anything that is worse; why should we doubt but the way
that was so long in use among the old Romans, who understood so well
the arts of government, was very proper for their punishment?
They condemned such as they found guilty of great crimes to work their
whole lives in quarries, or to dig in mines with chains about them.
But the method that I liked best was that which I observed in my travels
in Persia, among the Polylerits, who are a considerable and well-governed
people: they pay a yearly tribute to the King of Persia, but in all
other respects they are a free nation, and governed by their own laws:
they lie far from the sea, and are environed with hills; and, being
contented with the productions of their own country, which is very fruitful,
they have little commerce with any other nation; and as they, according
to the genius of their country, have no inclination to enlarge their
borders, so their mountains and the pension they pay to the Persian,
secure them from all invasions. Thus they have no wars among them;
they live rather conveniently than with splendour, and may be rather
called a happy nation than either eminent or famous; for I do not think
that they are known, so much as by name, to any but their next neighbours.
Those that are found guilty of theft among them are bound to make restitution
to the owner, and not, as it is in other places, to the prince, for
they reckon that the prince has no more right to the stolen goods than
the thief; but if that which was stolen is no more in being, then the
goods of the thieves are estimated, and restitution being made out of
them, the remainder is given to their wives and children; and they themselves
are condemned to serve in the public works, but are neither imprisoned
nor chained, unless there happens to be some extraordinary circumstance
in their crimes. They go about loose and free, working for the
public: if they are idle or backward to work they are whipped, but if
they work hard they are well used and treated without any mark of reproach;
only the lists of them are called always at night, and then they are
shut up. They suffer no other uneasiness but this of constant
labour; for, as they work for the public, so they are well entertained
out of the public stock, which is done differently in different places:
in some places whatever is bestowed on them is raised by a charitable
contribution; and, though this way may seem uncertain, yet so merciful
are the inclinations of that people, that they are plentifully supplied
by it; but in other places public revenues are set aside for them, or
there is a constant tax or poll-money raised for their maintenance.
In some places they are set to no public work, but every private man
that has occasion to hire workmen goes to the market-places and hires
them of the public, a little lower than he would do a freeman.
If they go lazily about their task he may quicken them with the whip.
By this means there is always some piece of work or other to be done
by them; and, besides their livelihood, they earn somewhat still to
the public. They all wear a peculiar habit, of one certain colour,
and their hair is cropped a little above their ears, and a piece of
one of their ears is cut off. Their friends are allowed to give
them either meat, drink, or clothes, so they are of their proper colour;
but it is death, both to the giver and taker, if they give them money;
nor is it less penal for any freeman to take money from them upon any
account whatsoever: and it is also death for any of these slaves (so
they are called) to handle arms. Those of every division of the
country are distinguished by a peculiar mark, which it is capital for
them to lay aside, to go out of their bounds, or to talk with a slave
of another jurisdiction, and the very attempt of an escape is no less
penal than an escape itself. It is death for any other slave to
be accessory to it; and if a freeman engages in it he is condemned to
slavery. Those that discover it are rewarded—if freemen,
in money; and if slaves, with liberty, together with a pardon for being
accessory to it; that so they might find their account rather in repenting
of their engaging in such a design than in persisting in it.</p>
<p>“These are their laws and rules in relation to robbery, and
it is obvious that they are as advantageous as they are mild and gentle;
since vice is not only destroyed and men preserved, but they are treated
in such a manner as to make them see the necessity of being honest and
of employing the rest of their lives in repairing the injuries they
had formerly done to society. Nor is there any hazard of their
falling back to their old customs; and so little do travellers apprehend
mischief from them that they generally make use of them for guides from
one jurisdiction to another; for there is nothing left them by which
they can rob or be the better for it, since, as they are disarmed, so
the very having of money is a sufficient conviction: and as they are
certainly punished if discovered, so they cannot hope to escape; for
their habit being in all the parts of it different from what is commonly
worn, they cannot fly away, unless they would go naked, and even then
their cropped ear would betray them. The only danger to be feared
from them is their conspiring against the government; but those of one
division and neighbourhood can do nothing to any purpose unless a general
conspiracy were laid amongst all the slaves of the several jurisdictions,
which cannot be done, since they cannot meet or talk together; nor will
any venture on a design where the concealment would be so dangerous
and the discovery so profitable. None are quite hopeless of recovering
their freedom, since by their obedience and patience, and by giving
good grounds to believe that they will change their manner of life for
the future, they may expect at last to obtain their liberty, and some
are every year restored to it upon the good character that is given
of them. When I had related all this, I added that I did not see
why such a method might not be followed with more advantage than could
ever be expected from that severe justice which the Counsellor magnified
so much. To this he answered, ‘That it could never take
place in England without endangering the whole nation.’
As he said this he shook his head, made some grimaces, and held his
peace, while all the company seemed of his opinion, except the Cardinal,
who said, ‘That it was not easy to form a judgment of its success,
since it was a method that never yet had been tried; but if,’
said he, ‘when sentence of death were passed upon a thief, the
prince would reprieve him for a while, and make the experiment upon
him, denying him the privilege of a sanctuary; and then, if it had a
good effect upon him, it might take place; and, if it did not succeed,
the worst would be to execute the sentence on the condemned persons
at last; and I do not see,’ added he, ‘why it would be either
unjust, inconvenient, or at all dangerous to admit of such a delay;
in my opinion the vagabonds ought to be treated in the same manner,
against whom, though we have made many laws, yet we have not been able
to gain our end.’ When the Cardinal had done, they all commended
the motion, though they had despised it when it came from me, but more
particularly commended what related to the vagabonds, because it was
his own observation.</p>
<p>“I do not know whether it be worth while to tell what followed,
for it was very ridiculous; but I shall venture at it, for as it is
not foreign to this matter, so some good use may be made of it.
There was a Jester standing by, that counterfeited the fool so naturally
that he seemed to be really one; the jests which he offered were so
cold and dull that we laughed more at him than at them, yet sometimes
he said, as it were by chance, things that were not unpleasant, so as
to justify the old proverb, ‘That he who throws the dice often,
will sometimes have a lucky hit.’ When one of the company
had said that I had taken care of the thieves, and the Cardinal had
taken care of the vagabonds, so that there remained nothing but that
some public provision might be made for the poor whom sickness or old
age had disabled from labour, ‘Leave that to me,’ said the
Fool, ‘and I shall take care of them, for there is no sort of
people whose sight I abhor more, having been so often vexed with them
and with their sad complaints; but as dolefully soever as they have
told their tale, they could never prevail so far as to draw one penny
from me; for either I had no mind to give them anything, or, when I
had a mind to do it, I had nothing to give them; and they now know me
so well that they will not lose their labour, but let me pass without
giving me any trouble, because they hope for nothing—no more,
in faith, than if I were a priest; but I would have a law made for sending
all these beggars to monasteries, the men to the Benedictines, to be
made lay-brothers, and the women to be nuns.’ The Cardinal
smiled, and approved of it in jest, but the rest liked it in earnest.
There was a divine present, who, though he was a grave morose man, yet
he was so pleased with this reflection that was made on the priests
and the monks that he began to play with the Fool, and said to him,
‘This will not deliver you from all beggars, except you take care
of us Friars.’ ‘That is done already,’ answered
the Fool, ‘for the Cardinal has provided for you by what he proposed
for restraining vagabonds and setting them to work, for I know no vagabonds
like you.’ This was well entertained by the whole company,
who, looking at the Cardinal, perceived that he was not ill-pleased
at it; only the Friar himself was vexed, as may be easily imagined,
and fell into such a passion that he could not forbear railing at the
Fool, and calling him knave, slanderer, backbiter, and son of perdition,
and then cited some dreadful threatenings out of the Scriptures against
him. Now the Jester thought he was in his element, and laid about
him freely. ‘Good Friar,’ said he, ‘be not angry,
for it is written, “In patience possess your soul.”’
The Friar answered (for I shall give you his own words), ‘I am
not angry, you hangman; at least, I do not sin in it, for the Psalmist
says, “Be ye angry and sin not.”’ Upon this
the Cardinal admonished him gently, and wished him to govern his passions.
‘No, my lord,’ said he, ‘I speak not but from a good
zeal, which I ought to have, for holy men have had a good zeal, as it
is said, “The zeal of thy house hath eaten me up;” and we
sing in our church that those who mocked Elisha as he went up to the
house of God felt the effects of his zeal, which that mocker, that rogue,
that scoundrel, will perhaps feel.’ ‘You do this,
perhaps, with a good intention,’ said the Cardinal, ‘but,
in my opinion, it were wiser in you, and perhaps better for you, not
to engage in so ridiculous a contest with a Fool.’ ‘No,
my lord,’ answered he, ‘that were not wisely done, for Solomon,
the wisest of men, said, “Answer a Fool according to his folly,”
which I now do, and show him the ditch into which he will fall, if he
is not aware of it; for if the many mockers of Elisha, who was but one
bald man, felt the effect of his zeal, what will become of the mocker
of so many Friars, among whom there are so many bald men? We have,
likewise, a bull, by which all that jeer us are excommunicated.’
When the Cardinal saw that there was no end of this matter he made a
sign to the Fool to withdraw, turned the discourse another way, and
soon after rose from the table, and, dismissing us, went to hear causes.</p>
<p>“Thus, Mr. More, I have run out into a tedious story, of the
length of which I had been ashamed, if (as you earnestly begged it of
me) I had not observed you to hearken to it as if you had no mind to
lose any part of it. I might have contracted it, but I resolved
to give it you at large, that you might observe how those that despised
what I had proposed, no sooner perceived that the Cardinal did not dislike
it but presently approved of it, fawned so on him and flattered him
to such a degree, that they in good earnest applauded those things that
he only liked in jest; and from hence you may gather how little courtiers
would value either me or my counsels.”</p>
<p>To this I answered, “You have done me a great kindness in this
relation; for as everything has been related by you both wisely and
pleasantly, so you have made me imagine that I was in my own country
and grown young again, by recalling that good Cardinal to my thoughts,
in whose family I was bred from my childhood; and though you are, upon
other accounts, very dear to me, yet you are the dearer because you
honour his memory so much; but, after all this, I cannot change my opinion,
for I still think that if you could overcome that aversion which you
have to the courts of princes, you might, by the advice which it is
in your power to give, do a great deal of good to mankind, and this
is the chief design that every good man ought to propose to himself
in living; for your friend Plato thinks that nations will be happy when
either philosophers become kings or kings become philosophers.
It is no wonder if we are so far from that happiness while philosophers
will not think it their duty to assist kings with their counsels.”
“They are not so base-minded,” said he, “but that
they would willingly do it; many of them have already done it by their
books, if those that are in power would but hearken to their good advice.
But Plato judged right, that except kings themselves became philosophers,
they who from their childhood are corrupted with false notions would
never fall in entirely with the counsels of philosophers, and this he
himself found to be true in the person of Dionysius.</p>
<p>“Do not you think that if I were about any king, proposing
good laws to him, and endeavouring to root out all the cursed seeds
of evil that I found in him, I should either be turned out of his court,
or, at least, be laughed at for my pains? For instance, what could
I signify if I were about the King of France, and were called into his
cabinet council, where several wise men, in his hearing, were proposing
many expedients; as, by what arts and practices Milan may be kept, and
Naples, that has so often slipped out of their hands, recovered; how
the Venetians, and after them the rest of Italy, may be subdued; and
then how Flanders, Brabant, and all Burgundy, and some other kingdoms
which he has swallowed already in his designs, may be added to his empire?
One proposes a league with the Venetians, to be kept as long as he finds
his account in it, and that he ought to communicate counsels with them,
and give them some share of the spoil till his success makes him need
or fear them less, and then it will be easily taken out of their hands;
another proposes the hiring the Germans and the securing the Switzers
by pensions; another proposes the gaining the Emperor by money, which
is omnipotent with him; another proposes a peace with the King of Arragon,
and, in order to cement it, the yielding up the King of Navarre’s
pretensions; another thinks that the Prince of Castile is to be wrought
on by the hope of an alliance, and that some of his courtiers are to
be gained to the French faction by pensions. The hardest point
of all is, what to do with England; a treaty of peace is to be set on
foot, and, if their alliance is not to be depended on, yet it is to
be made as firm as possible, and they are to be called friends, but
suspected as enemies: therefore the Scots are to be kept in readiness
to be let loose upon England on every occasion; and some banished nobleman
is to be supported underhand (for by the League it cannot be done avowedly)
who has a pretension to the crown, by which means that suspected prince
may be kept in awe. Now when things are in so great a fermentation,
and so many gallant men are joining counsels how to carry on the war,
if so mean a man as I should stand up and wish them to change all their
counsels—to let Italy alone and stay at home, since the kingdom
of France was indeed greater than could be well governed by one man;
that therefore he ought not to think of adding others to it; and if,
after this, I should propose to them the resolutions of the Achorians,
a people that lie on the south-east of Utopia, who long ago engaged
in war in order to add to the dominions of their prince another kingdom,
to which he had some pretensions by an ancient alliance: this they conquered,
but found that the trouble of keeping it was equal to that by which
it was gained; that the conquered people were always either in rebellion
or exposed to foreign invasions, while they were obliged to be incessantly
at war, either for or against them, and consequently could never disband
their army; that in the meantime they were oppressed with taxes, their
money went out of the kingdom, their blood was spilt for the glory of
their king without procuring the least advantage to the people, who
received not the smallest benefit from it even in time of peace; and
that, their manners being corrupted by a long war, robbery and murders
everywhere abounded, and their laws fell into contempt; while their
king, distracted with the care of two kingdoms, was the less able to
apply his mind to the interest of either. When they saw this,
and that there would be no end to these evils, they by joint counsels
made an humble address to their king, desiring him to choose which of
the two kingdoms he had the greatest mind to keep, since he could not
hold both; for they were too great a people to be governed by a divided
king, since no man would willingly have a groom that should be in common
between him and another. Upon which the good prince was forced
to quit his new kingdom to one of his friends (who was not long after
dethroned), and to be contented with his old one. To this I would
add that after all those warlike attempts, the vast confusions, and
the consumption both of treasure and of people that must follow them,
perhaps upon some misfortune they might be forced to throw up all at
last; therefore it seemed much more eligible that the king should improve
his ancient kingdom all he could, and make it flourish as much as possible;
that he should love his people, and be beloved of them; that he should
live among them, govern them gently and let other kingdoms alone, since
that which had fallen to his share was big enough, if not too big, for
him:—pray, how do you think would such a speech as this be heard?”</p>
<p>“I confess,” said I, “I think not very well.”</p>
<p>“But what,” said he, “if I should sort with another
kind of ministers, whose chief contrivances and consultations were by
what art the prince’s treasures might be increased? where one
proposes raising the value of specie when the king’s debts are
large, and lowering it when his revenues were to come in, that so he
might both pay much with a little, and in a little receive a great deal.
Another proposes a pretence of a war, that money might be raised in
order to carry it on, and that a peace be concluded as soon as that
was done; and this with such appearances of religion as might work on
the people, and make them impute it to the piety of their prince, and
to his tenderness for the lives of his subjects. A third offers
some old musty laws that have been antiquated by a long disuse (and
which, as they had been forgotten by all the subjects, so they had also
been broken by them), and proposes the levying the penalties of these
laws, that, as it would bring in a vast treasure, so there might be
a very good pretence for it, since it would look like the executing
a law and the doing of justice. A fourth proposes the prohibiting
of many things under severe penalties, especially such as were against
the interest of the people, and then the dispensing with these prohibitions,
upon great compositions, to those who might find their advantage in
breaking them. This would serve two ends, both of them acceptable
to many; for as those whose avarice led them to transgress would be
severely fined, so the selling licences dear would look as if a prince
were tender of his people, and would not easily, or at low rates, dispense
with anything that might be against the public good. Another proposes
that the judges must be made sure, that they may declare always in favour
of the prerogative; that they must be often sent for to court, that
the king may hear them argue those points in which he is concerned;
since, how unjust soever any of his pretensions may be, yet still some
one or other of them, either out of contradiction to others, or the
pride of singularity, or to make their court, would find out some pretence
or other to give the king a fair colour to carry the point. For
if the judges but differ in opinion, the clearest thing in the world
is made by that means disputable, and truth being once brought in question,
the king may then take advantage to expound the law for his own profit;
while the judges that stand out will be brought over, either through
fear or modesty; and they being thus gained, all of them may be sent
to the Bench to give sentence boldly as the king would have it; for
fair pretences will never be wanting when sentence is to be given in
the prince’s favour. It will either be said that equity
lies of his side, or some words in the law will be found sounding that
way, or some forced sense will be put on them; and, when all other things
fail, the king’s undoubted prerogative will be pretended, as that
which is above all law, and to which a religious judge ought to have
a special regard. Thus all consent to that maxim of Crassus, that
a prince cannot have treasure enough, since he must maintain his armies
out of it; that a king, even though he would, can do nothing unjustly;
that all property is in him, not excepting the very persons of his subjects;
and that no man has any other property but that which the king, out
of his goodness, thinks fit to leave him. And they think it is
the prince’s interest that there be as little of this left as
may be, as if it were his advantage that his people should have neither
riches nor liberty, since these things make them less easy and willing
to submit to a cruel and unjust government. Whereas necessity
and poverty blunts them, makes them patient, beats them down, and breaks
that height of spirit that might otherwise dispose them to rebel.
Now what if, after all these propositions were made, I should rise up
and assert that such counsels were both unbecoming a king and mischievous
to him; and that not only his honour, but his safety, consisted more
in his people’s wealth than in his own; if I should show that
they choose a king for their own sake, and not for his; that, by his
care and endeavours, they may be both easy and safe; and that, therefore,
a prince ought to take more care of his people’s happiness than
of his own, as a shepherd is to take more care of his flock than of
himself? It is also certain that they are much mistaken that think
the poverty of a nation is a mean of the public safety. Who quarrel
more than beggars? who does more earnestly long for a change than he
that is uneasy in his present circumstances? and who run to create confusions
with so desperate a boldness as those who, having nothing to lose, hope
to gain by them? If a king should fall under such contempt or
envy that he could not keep his subjects in their duty but by oppression
and ill usage, and by rendering them poor and miserable, it were certainly
better for him to quit his kingdom than to retain it by such methods
as make him, while he keeps the name of authority, lose the majesty
due to it. Nor is it so becoming the dignity of a king to reign
over beggars as over rich and happy subjects. And therefore Fabricius,
a man of a noble and exalted temper, said ‘he would rather govern
rich men than be rich himself; since for one man to abound in wealth
and pleasure when all about him are mourning and groaning, is to be
a gaoler and not a king.’ He is an unskilful physician that
cannot cure one disease without casting his patient into another.
So he that can find no other way for correcting the errors of his people
but by taking from them the conveniences of life, shows that he knows
not what it is to govern a free nation. He himself ought rather
to shake off his sloth, or to lay down his pride, for the contempt or
hatred that his people have for him takes its rise from the vices in
himself. Let him live upon what belongs to him without wronging
others, and accommodate his expense to his revenue. Let him punish
crimes, and, by his wise conduct, let him endeavour to prevent them,
rather than be severe when he has suffered them to be too common.
Let him not rashly revive laws that are abrogated by disuse, especially
if they have been long forgotten and never wanted. And let him
never take any penalty for the breach of them to which a judge would
not give way in a private man, but would look on him as a crafty and
unjust person for pretending to it. To these things I would add
that law among the Macarians—a people that live not far from Utopia—by
which their king, on the day on which he began to reign, is tied by
an oath, confirmed by solemn sacrifices, never to have at once above
a thousand pounds of gold in his treasures, or so much silver as is
equal to that in value. This law, they tell us, was made by an
excellent king who had more regard to the riches of his country than
to his own wealth, and therefore provided against the heaping up of
so much treasure as might impoverish the people. He thought that
moderate sum might be sufficient for any accident, if either the king
had occasion for it against the rebels, or the kingdom against the invasion
of an enemy; but that it was not enough to encourage a prince to invade
other men’s rights—a circumstance that was the chief cause
of his making that law. He also thought that it was a good provision
for that free circulation of money so necessary for the course of commerce
and exchange. And when a king must distribute all those extraordinary
accessions that increase treasure beyond the due pitch, it makes him
less disposed to oppress his subjects. Such a king as this will
be the terror of ill men, and will be beloved by all the good.</p>
<div style="break-after:column;"></div><br />